1. Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

    Do you realize that your link of "List_of_black_Nobel_Laureates" CONFIRMS MY POINT?

    Did you read what I wrote? specially when I say "awarded with a SCIENTIFIC nobel prize. "? Which of the prizes shown in the link are SCIENTIFIC?

    About hispanics in US, do you realize that they usually face a worse fate than blacks, because, for a start, most of them started as ILLEGAL citizens?

    Are you aware that there are statistically confirmed, more weathy blacks than hispanics weathy people? yet how come no black has nearby that level of success regarding science (being awarded a Nobel prize or a Fields medal)?

    Same in classical music (the most complex music by far), are you aware that  even indigenous people, living in the wild for ages,
    were capable of composing music like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sez0z4RTP1U (look for bolivian baroque in amazon, for more), take also Jaime Laredo also as another example unmatched by black people in classical music.

    With millions far more wealthy than the family of SCIENTIFIC nobel laureates like Alvarez, Molina, or maestro Laredo in classical music,
    or the indigenous people in south america during the jesuit missions. How come no black equivalents in such fields?

    Do you get my point now, with these examples and facts?

    • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

      Jazz is far more complex than classical & it wasn't just mimicked like your Hispanic examples did with classical Blacks created this art form from scratch. As for Nobel prize winners we have 16 in 6 categories & we are working on that scientific one. As for why we don't have one yet I point to my previous comment alluding to the current & past several centuries of economic & educational discrimination.  Now how about you answer my question about the low average Hispanic iQ. Do you believe thats in your genes or is there someother dynamic?

      • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

        Jazz is "far more complex than classical"? You have to be very ignorant of music to make such claim.

        There are TONS of classically trained musicians who amuse jazz fans in concerts, despite they mainly play classical.

        Examples? you can check the german pianist Alexander schimpf as a small example, or violinists Joshua Bell, Roy Sonne.

        However, how often do you see jazz musicians being able to play top notch classical music with such level of proficiency?

        About hispanics low iq, as I told you, the low average (better than blacks, despite living in worse conditions than blacks, as they are illegals for a start) doesn't avoid hispanics winning  SCIENTIFIC nobel prizes, or being found within top notch mathematicians.

        For instance, the mayans had math and/or astronomy MORE ADVANCED THAN THE EUROPEANS OF THEIR TIME (same amazing stuff found with some amazonic tribes less known than mayans), while the black NEVER were able to show that level in math. Jaime Escalante showed the path to raise up for illegal latins, when trained, they beat up whites in national scores. Too bad he got expelled because he was a problem for unions.

        • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

          You offer up your opinion as if its fact. The fact is when ever the question is asked "what is the most complex form of music" Jazz is always mentioned as 1st or 2nd. The fact Jazx was created by African Americans points to our innate genius. What form of music has your people created from scratch.  All latin music has African roots. Also the struggles of being a foriegner pales to that of systemic racism.  Africans live in a world where even a person from a group with a mean IQ of 88 seeks to belittle our acomplishments. A system that teaches IQ is an inherent biological factor to explain away the results foul cards it has intentionally dealt to a people. A racist system that teaches this hierarchy is biological & has brain washed other victims of its inequality into agreeing they are inherently less intelligent than Whites by comforting them with the false hood they are inherently smarter than Blacks. This is foolishness.

          • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

            Alexander Schimpf, Josh Bell or other classical musicians capable of play jazz at world-class level are not opinions, they are facts.

            You still fail to show me pure jazz musicians who can play world-class level of proficiency the most complex classical music, and play it in the cathedrals of classical music.

            I showed you examples, you fail to show me your example.

            The other part is a very long technical discussion, who could be far bigger than the article, here, and would demand you to be a conservatoire graduate to  understand it. But you can understand the players comparison in a more easy way.

            • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

              Just for shits and giggles though
              Keith Jarrett, Benny Goodman, Dave Brubeck, Chick Corea, Joachim Kuhn, Ron Carter, Richie Beirach, Eddie Daniels, Bud Shank, Wynton Marsalis (who won Grammy's in classical and Jazz in the same year),Branford Marsalis -i'll stop hear but it clear you have avery limited knowledge of music history or you would not have made the rediculous assumption jazz artist have never played classical nor have played it well. Also the fcat is Jazz was an art form created by Afro- Americans. Hispanics have created no original form of music as Latin music has stromg African roots & even so only Jazz is compared to classical in its complexity. You are argueing Hispanics  can play a European form of music  better than  Africans can play a highly complex form of music they have created from scratch. This is false. The fact you were unaware of the myriad of Jazz musicians who have played classical well enough to sell millions of records and win Grammies for both in the same year leads me to assume the “very big long technical discussion” you allude to would be full of the same holes and lacking the same depth of knowledge you’ve just displayed –poorly played Javier…poorly played

              • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                Marsalis, Beirach or Kuhn and most of the ones who jazz players who can play classical  were CLASICALLY TRAINED, even since childhood.

                If they are clasically trained musicians who switch to jazz, of course they will still be able to play classical, when it was their primary training, ins't it?

                That's why I talked about PURE CLASSICAL MUSICIANS, ones with only jazz training, whithout being clasically trained, being able to play classical, like what you see when clasical musicians can grab jazz and play it beautifully.

                BTW, the only case I remember of a musician with zero clasical training being able to play classical (and jazz also) was PACO DE LUCIA, and he was a flamenco guitarist and composer, not a jazz musician.

      • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

        Forgot another example CHESS.

        Brainy ethnic groups like whites or jews shine at Chess, yet hispanics had one world champion, Jose Raul Capablanca.

        Today, there are top notch (above 2600 elo) hispanic Chess players like Julio Granda, Lenier Dominguez, Lazaro Bruzon, Fernando Peralta, Rafael Leitao, etc. While on the black side, the black gold standard is Maurice Ashley, elo 2446 (a VERY long way from the 2600 elite).

        Isn't this another clear example of what I'm talking about?

        • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

          All of the chess gm's youve quoted are from Europe or Latin American countries with very good chess programs. Maurice Ashley is from Jamaica one of the worlds poorest countries who never had a gm play there until Maurice Ashley did. You continually point to examples of people who come from superior enviroments.

    • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

      en.m.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_composers_of_African_descent here is a list of Black classical music composers.
      again the 100 meter example is moot. We are talking about cognitive ability. This envolves consciousness. Its not just mere muscle. Once consciousness is entered into the equation you just cant measure it like a bicep.
      As far as illegal immigrants facing a worst fate im sorry this is a fallacy. Immigrants still have their lanquage & culture.  Both are powerful psychological support systems. The fallacy in this whole IQ argument is that no psychological data is taken in when IQ is clearly an aspect of mental function.  Numbers & data are easier to work with than psycho analytics but you simply cannot attribute numbers to an aspect of the mind. To do so will always be simply guess work

    • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

      1st Id like to correct the categories 3 out of 6 were won by African Americans ir Black Africans & Sir William Arthur Lewis won the nobel prize for Economic Sciences ie: SCIENCE. We can talk physics & chemestry in the near future if you like but  I also dont see the point of admitting there are more Black Millionares than Hispanics millionares. I mean one need be intelligent to aquire a fortune. As for IQ & real intelligence Two of the highest IQ processors work in bars for a living [other peoples bars]

      • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

        They also call psychology a science, but we are talking about REAL SCIENCE, the one who require EXTREMELY HIGH ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY that goes beyond the league of average humans.

        And again, I'm not talking about IQ, but about SCIENTIFIC NOBEL LAUREATES or winners of FIELDS MEDAL.

        • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

          This part of the problem
          People are trying to quantify something that is an aspect of the mind ie: mental capabilities with out using the science that is a study of the mind ie: psychology

          People are trying to use so called hard sciences(this is what you probably were trying to say when you said “real” science) such as biology and statistics to quantify an aspect of mental function.
          This is idiotic.
          This is like trying to guess the speed of light by using the science of geology. Using the wrong discipline will never result in a right answer. All genetics and stats can do is tell you the results in this matter not the causation. We are looking for the causation. No scientific study has been able to point to any gene that correlates with lower IQ that also distributed amongst one racial groups as opposed to another For example: the gene that produces an enzyme called deiodonase-2 is not more prevalent in Blacks, Latinos or other low scoring groups.  
          Again this is NOT a matter of physical prowess. It’s a matter of MENTAL capability.  
          In my opinion in the matter of IQ scores If your not using any data from psycho-social studies your not looking for the real answer. By just using data from so called hard science the researchers are just looking for information that justifies the answer they want

          • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

            What part of "I'm not talking about IQ, but about SCIENTIFIC NOBEL LAUREATES or winners of FIELDS MEDAL."  do you still fail to understand?

            What about Physics or Chemistry Nobel laureates? About Fields medal laufreates?

            How can 'environment' be the only excuse, when you can find laureates from very poor backgrounds and that suffered harsh conditions or even persecutions?

            Of the MILLIONS of middle-class or wealthy black kids in past decades, failed to produce ONE scientific Nobel laureate or Fields medalist, and you still say environment is the only possible cause?

            And you never answered, why would nature have to be 'fair'?

            If nature is unfair (predators kill other animals, naturally gifted athletes that can become superstars with proper training, people more handsome than others from birth), why would top-notch mental abstraction capability would be the exception? whern will you explain it?

            • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

              I never said nature should be fair. In fact the fact Africa has two of the biggest deserts in the world, no domestic crops or animals native to its habitat & probably the harshest living conditions in the world & Eurasia & the Middle East are where domestic crops & animals are native to, fertile river areas along with the best climatic zones to live in is an unfair aspect of nature
              Again im stating your arguments using natural atheletic prowess to state mental prowess is inherited & displayed in the same manner is incorrect. No one is saying genes play no part in academic achievement or that environment is the sole factor
              What I am saying their is no genetic component that causes Blacks or minorities such as Hispanics to score lower on IQ test
              what I am saying is that the extreme racist oppressive environment is the primary reason for Black under achievement & this negative environment is far more extreme & damaging than you realize or admit. Blacks have been barred from participating in education from the lowest to the highest levels. Hispanics especially non Mexicans have been far more accepted by White society than Blacks ever have. When Sidney Potier played in a movie where he dated a White woman it was banned in the Southern US but Ricky Ricardo a Hispanic immigrants was & starred as the husband of Lucille Ball on nnational tv for years. Blacks would lie & say they were Latin to get jobs in the 1960's & prior. This is the depth of the discrimination Blacks have & still suffer. Below is a link describing some of the issues Black scientist & mathematicians have suffered.

              www.pbs.org/.../barriers-black-scientists.html

              http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/madgreatest.html

              • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                And I never denied environment play its part, but you can't deny the genetic role in EVERYTHING regarding human characteristics.

                There have been millions and millions of kids from wealthy familes, yet such mass fail to produce ONE single scientific Nobel laureate or ONE field medalist or ONE chess prodigy in the 2600 area. How come you would still insist to blame only the enviroenment when you find cases like the ones I mentioned before, some of them coming from rural villages and living in extreme poverty in childhood?
                Again, explain this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Cori

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