1. Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

    Again and again, I'm talking about WORLD-CLASS  ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY, sometimes measured in IQ test, but more inportant, measured in verifiable ACHIEVEMENTS (like a scientific Nobel laureate, a Fields Medal winner, or a 2600+ chess GM).

    The black kid prodigy is not a serius thing, child  prodigies are dime a dozen in other races, but most of them dissapear (many of them are just trained monkeys doing tricks, without real superior intellect).

    What is more interesting to see is which of such prodigies develop into a BRILLIANT ADULTS (like former prodigies Julio Granda and Jorge Cori developed, form rural very poor and rural background, in a very racist society like the peruvian one).

    And again, environment can not be the only excuse, cause there are MILLIONS of black kids from wealthy families (in conditions far better than Granda or Cori) yet they fail to produce ONE scientific nobel laureate or Field Medalist or Chess elite player, I{m talking about JUST ONE.

    How come black are able to produce top notch athletes, even in expensive and elitist sports, yet fail to produce ONE top notch analytical mind in fields far less elitists? (or will you say science or chess are more elitist than tennis, who produced players like Arthur Ahse or Yannick Noah back then, when tennis was far more elitist than today)?

    Again, I don't say envirinment won't affect intellectual development, I just say you can't blame it only on environment. It is you who want to put 100% of the blame into environment.

    Apart from this article we discuss, you could start reading other peer-reviewed info like this: www.sciencedirect.com/.../S0160289606001395

    • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

      You repeat questions ive answersed & answered quite consisely. You state a native Peruvian suffers racism in his or her native Peru? Seems your just being argumenitive. The youngest mensa member is no mere dime a dozen prodigy but again are Hispanics genetically inferior IQ wise to Europeans. You can simply say yes or no to make it easier on your self. I wouldn't provide peered reviewed information when it seems you have not read my peer reviewed information.  Quid pro quo Javier but 1st your answer would be appreciated. Ive answered your question albeit you may not like or agree with the answers but nevertheless ive answered them. My question requires but a two or three letter word. We can carry on if you like but a direct answer would be appreciated. So again are Hispanics genetically inferior in respects to IQ.

      • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

        Hugh Cipher,

        First, when you say "ou state a native Peruvian suffers racism in his or her native Peru? "

        OF COURSE THEY DO, and it isn't a rare thing. Indigenous people suffered racism.

        Do a very quick confirmation, most (above 80%) of peruvian population is indigenous, yet when you see peruvian TV, only white-like actors appear. OTOH, in the US TV, you see plenty of black actors, at least matching the % of black population in the US (if not more).

        And this happens in all latinamerica. So, being native doesn't grant you to get exempt from severe racism.

        About the mensa kid, please learn some facts. IQ test can not be taken seriously at very young age. AND scores tend to be higher when younger than in adulthood, cause you can get more Edge. For instance, Guiness record holder Von Savant had 228 in her teens, now in adulthood he has a little more of 180. So, a kid having 141 (even we'd accept it as a valid test) would not be something that impressive, case it only says that he is 41% better than the average of his age, 200+ and we'd be talking. And again, prodigies are dime a dozen. What is important is which of such prodigies develop into brilliant adults.

        And I wouldn't have any problem admitting we hispanics have some kind of genetic burden, cause my PERSONAL IQ and personal achievements are far ahead of whites or jews averages.

        My point was that, unlike blacks, what gives hispanics al least benefit of the doubt, is that, at least sometimes, hispanics showed capability to beat the top notch of whites jews and asians, in fields that demand extremely high abstraction capability (real science or chess in my examples), something not seen in black in recent history.

        Even the mayan example is not equivalent to the egypt example, cause there is not real certainity about the ethnicity of egyptians, and it was so long ago, so it's difficult to verify, AND blacks have not reproduced again such supposed level of achievement (being capable of getting to the top) in science, math or astronomy.

        While with mayans or Moxo inhabitants, there is no way of uncertainity, cause their civilization was isolated from Europe, when they developed their math and science, ahead of the europeans of their time. And such hispanics have repated achievements in the examples I showed you before.

        And again, it is you who fail to explain, given the fact that there are MILLIONS of black kids from wealthy families raised decades ago, ¿how come there are examples of blacks getting to the top even in very elitists sports, yet we have ZERO blacks getting to the elite in science or chess, when such intellectual  fields were and are far less elitists than sports like tennis?

        • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

          It is very sad you actually feel your people have a genetic burden. Devote some study to the psychological and social effects of discrimination on your own peoples. The racism and color bias with in your own culture. Were you see a genetic burden I see a people discriminated against and whos countries are not as well economically developed as Europe’s or Asia's. A people oppressed but less oppressed than Black Africans so you see them with an over all  2 to 3 pt higher IQ average. A people who have achieved academic accolades but usually its their more European members who have achieved these accolades. I dont see this as genetic based but as culturally and society based. The more European one looks the better they are treated through out life. This affects ones life tremendously. Extrapolate this across a whole ethnic group and we will see the type of results we see in Hispanic populations.
          You are happy to admit genetic inferiority because a few of your group members have mere trophies (nobel prizes)?
          Do your own self a favor and eliminate all of the environmental factors that effect you people before you so readily drink the White supremacist kool-aide. Then you can return to a conversation with me with a clear and un colonized state of mind and view of this phenomenon  

          If i was ever angry at you I no longer am....I feel sadness for you hombre de Quechua pelu

          • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

            When you say "It is very sad you actually feel your people have a genetic burden."

            I answer you THE TURTH DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A FAIRY TALE!

            Are you aware that DEATH is an horrible fact of reality? It is far more horrible than unfairness regarding intellect celing, isn't it?

            Why a lot of unfairness is accepted easily (death, hunger, native athletic potential that you can't teach, etc.) yet you feel so offended by something so trivial like difference in intelligence ceiling?

        • ?
          crystal rosett crystal rosett Canada says:

          you need to learn some facts lol. mensa munda case can be taken seriously. GENE EXPRESSION doesn’t go through drastic changes when you get older lol. what happens is you go through puberty and your environment starts to change which can lead to a decrease in iq scores. plus he’s not the only outlier. anthony johnson, etc


          do you ever consider that blacks turn to sports because they see it as economic opportunities? you do know how stereotypes can affect certain people right? they might feel like they have to act a certain way or be a certain way to get approval.

          www.google.ca/.../31-highly-influential-african-american-scientists it’s funny  how you will go through leaps and bounds to try and discredit african achievements lol. you keep bringing up chess but how many blacks are even in the chess league in the first place? if anything it’s even more impressive because statistics show is that blacks come from LESS and are still able to achieve great feats

      • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

        Before you get angry in the Egytp's case, something to read voices.yahoo.com/...nes-confirm-that-12124134.html

        So, please, don't mix the ethnicity of the elite, with the ethnicity of the masses.

        • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

          Im not surprised you hold these beliefs about Kemet Nut ie: Egypt but this is a pdf of the latest dna testing done by  geneticist confirming Egypt had Black Africans through out its society and enlarge began as an African society
          dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-02-01.pdf (pages 2 to 5 I recommend)
          This confirms what eye witness such as Herodotus have said about Egypt and which is that its people were Black Africans
          As for your Meso American ancestors the Olmecs, they more than likely were of mixed African decent the fact being Black Africans were in meso Ameica before Columbus
          and the Olmec artifacts speak for themselves and the fact that
          the 1st peoples in the Americas were Black Afro-Aboriginals
          lend weight to this theory on the Olmecs. As for Egypt again this debate is over. The DNA results are in and they agree with me and Herodotus

          • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

            ALL HUMANS come from Africa, even Europeans. If you see that way, all of us will have Africans allell in a DNA test

            My point is that genetic traits  define a 'race': hair, eyes, skin, and in the issue discussed here, physical and intellectual average CEILING.

            Of course envirmonment plays, but also genes, like in EVERYTHING!!

            Why still fail to explain, why would inteliigence be an exception? if nature is by definition wild and unfaair, why would nature have to be 'fair' regarding intelligence?

            Forget everything else and ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, PLEASE.

            How come world class athletes have been produced in even very elitists sports (like tennis back then in my example), yet ZERO top-notch 'mental athletes' were produced in areas far less elitists as chess or hard science?

            • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

              If “ALL HUMANS come from Africa, even Europeans. If you see that way, all of us will have Africans allell in a DNA test” is your response to scientist finding Egyptian royal mummy dna predominantly African then you for one have a poor understanding of genetics. If your understanding of genetics is this flawed then I surely would recommend you understand how gene traits are passed on better before I jump to blaming poor academic achievement genes distributed along racial lines

            • crystal rosett crystal rosett Canada says:

              what lol? you just said there were no blacks in ancient egypt, he gives you proof that “everybody is african” lol if that’s the case then all these great feats can be attributed to black africans. do you know how genetics work? you and your great great great great great grandfather probably won’t share any genes lol

        • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

          The iGENEA King Tut DNA results are a fraud. iGENEA never had actual dna samples of Tut but used information from a discovery channel documentary & filled in the blanks. They've made thousands by bilking Whites who are hopeful to be related to Tut. Theyve been cheated.  Unlike iGENEA the DNATribes results are academic peer reviewed & taken from actual royal mummies.

          • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

            Cleopatra for insance, was macedonian.

            And the other point is that back then, science was almost unexistant. While in the mayans example is from far more recent times.

            And besides, how come such supposed achievement of blacks was not seen in more recent times?

            When will you answer this? how come you can find a¿black athletes getting to the top in very elitists sports, yet you find nothing in far less elitists fields like science and chess?

            And please don't missinterpret me, I'm not happy with unfairness at all, my point is trying to accept reality as accurate as possible, without the 'politically correct' bs.

            Accepting reality is a far better option for real help, IMO.

            • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

              Cleopatra was a Ptolemy Greek Egyptian. She was undoubtedly of Greek/Macedonian heritage but her sister Arsinoe was recently found and scientist identified she was of African decent so Cleopatra may have been of mixed African blood also www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

              I applaud the Mayans past achievements. The fact they live on a tribal level (some call primitive) is proof civilizations rise and fall as the people who built them do.
              There are scores of brilliant Black scientist. Most definitely enough to prove their ancestors could  have built civilizations in the past . We need not point to Egypt alone but Nubia,Axum,Benin and Timbuktu are all examples of advanced Black African civilizations. The north western European who dominates the world today did not do so in ancient times. There are no pyramids in Berlin. No grand ancient BC period temples in Paris.
              The reasons why peoples build grand civilizations have more to do with environment than genes. This is why the meso American Indians built grand civilizations but their north American cousins did not-environment. I would watch guns germs and steel http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/ to get a better idea of this dynamic.
              As to your repeated question I will try to make it uber clear

              The racism Blacks suffer is far more acute and damaging than that of Hispanics
              Afro Americans culture was destroyed in slavery and have they have created a dysfunctional culture do to the oppressive dysfunctional conditions they suffer through
              Hispanics have a very intact and well grounded culture. This gives Hispanics a tool to fight psychological oppressions/racism that Blacks do not have
              Blacks have scores of highly intelligent scientist and mathematicians and  the fact Blacks only have one Nobel prize in hard science (economics) does not negate this
              The reality is that I know my self and have known many brilliant Blacks and this alone proves to me there is not gene or genes that are distributed amongst Blacks or Hispanics more so than others that cause low IQ
              Yes genes play a role in IQ but these genes are not distributed amongst one race more so than another
              There are far to many environmental factors that must be ruled out before one can jump to such conclusions as certain races are genetically inferior in terms of IQ

              As for athletic achievement again Blacks are not oppressed physically
              When laws forbade Blacks to play in sports you did not see these achievements
              Today the oppression is psychological, economic and environmental thus you see a lack of achievement in these areas-IQ falls under the realm of psychology
              I believe this is a clear answer to your query
              Now if you do not accept these reasons this is another thing and I can do nothing to sway you that the research and insights I have previously given can

              • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                Lot of flaws in your statements.

                First, Economy is NOT  a hard science, it's far closer to pshychology than to physics or math.

                Next, it's still missing how come in very elitists sports like tennis, black players appeared in the top level, yet it doesn't happen in science or chess.

                My tennis example was clear, grand slams or Davis Cup in one side ZERO in the other side.

                If very clear attributes are more present in some races, that end up in clear differences in hair, eyes or skin color, WHY WOULD  ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY BE THE EXCEPTION?

                That's something no denialist can explain at all.

            • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

              I'll leave you with this question & why I use this as an anology of how culture can defend against racism.
              Have you heard of the Latino paradox?
              As you know ive stated that Hispanics have stronger cultural bonds that deflect racism.
              The Latino paradox is a term that comes from a study that showed Latino/Hispanic immigrants have lower rates of mental illness than even rich Whites. Latino immigrants also are physically healthier than any race or class of Americans
              One factor many researchers attribute this to is that Hispanics have tight nit strong family groups (culture) that insulate them from the stress & racism of American society.

              It is well known physical & mental illness is tied into peoples social economic status. The richer you are the longer you live. This has more to do with the stress of being poor than medical attention although this is a factor also.  Social economic status & racism effect mental health & IQ being a mental or cognitive function is naturally effected as well.
              So in ending this is explains the reason why Hispanics have achieved certain academic accolades that Blacks have not. As ive stated Hispanic have a strong intact culture that lessens the effects of discrimination
              Again Afro American culture does not have this protection mechanism

              This is an interesting article I reccomend

              • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                Blacks have PLENTY of wealthy families in the USa, from decades ago, THEY EVEN HAVE A PRESIDENT for gods sake! (perhaps they have better genes than hispanics regarding the abilities needed to have political and monetary success, BUT NOT better hardware for extremely high ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY the one needed for being a super-elite Chess GM, or a Nobel laureate in real science or a Fields medalist.

                • crystal rosett crystal rosett Canada says:

                  black middle class families tend to do worse than white middle class families.
                  rich black people live in neighbouring similar to poor white people. poor whites live in more affluent neighborhoods than rich blacks. so even with income, opportunities aren’t equal so your point is moot

              • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                Whe you say "Again Afro American culture does not have this protection mechanism"

                I put the question in this other way.

                How come such supposed black 'lack of protection' , didn't stop blacks to produce several of the greatest athletes in human history, to produce an USA PRESIDENT and a lot of wealthy families, yet they fail to produce ONE Nobel laureate in real science, ONE Fields medalist, or ONE chess super-elite GM?

              • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                Are you aware that skills needed to become extremely rich businessman, or extremely succesful politican or lawyer, are not the same needed to be a world-class scientist or Chess GM?

            • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

              This is the correct link about recent the recent discovery that Cleopatra was of mixed Black African decent

            • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

              Eye & skin color are traits that
              Can be attributed to single or a few genetic mutations.  Cognitive ability is a product of a myriad of genes & enviromental effects. One would think if since the races vary in skin, hair & eye color so why not mental ability but its not that simple for one fact intellectual capability, mental cognition & the organ it springs from(the brain) is far more complex than mere eye color.
              its like comparing a cars engine & transmission  to the cars paint job

              • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                And athletic potential is product of a few genes?

                How come in speed sprint, blacks are unbeatable, no matter how hard white athletes train?

                Are white atletes segregated in such competitions?

                What other explanation would you give to blacks being capable of produce world class, unbeatable athletes, even in some very elitist sports, yet they fail to produce ONE, OOOOONNNNEEEEE  Nobel laureate in a hard science, one winner of the Fields medal, or ONE chess elite player?

                You can{t blame envirnoment 100% on this, it is ABSURD DENIAL.

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