1. Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

    Unlike some assume THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL BLACK NOBEL LAUREATES not just peace prize winners (see link below) aslo I will again ask Javier Perez as it seems I have difficulty commenting & responding on this thread

    I see you seem to be of Hispanic origins do you feel the Hispanics average IQ of 88 to be largely genetic in origin or a result of a people from a socially disadvantaged group not having the same access to education as Whites?
    Some say Hispanics may never reach equal IQ levels with Whites
    www.huffingtonpost.com/.../...ation_n_3240168.html

    Also comparing the genetic heratibility of athletic prowess to that of IQ is a fallacy in its self. The brain is the seat of consciousness & psycho social stimuli effect the mind far more so than mere muscle. Hopefully my previous response is allowed but if not ill give a synopsis.  No group has endured the 300 plus years of chattel slavery, American Apartheid ie Jim Crow & the systemic ingrained racism that is apart of American culture. Its like equating what the Americans did to the Japanese Americans In WW2 to what the Germans did to the Jews. Both are crimes but one pales in comparison to the other

    en.m.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_black_Nobel_Laureates

    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      Do you realize that your link of "List_of_black_Nobel_Laureates" CONFIRMS MY POINT?

      Did you read what I wrote? specially when I say "awarded with a SCIENTIFIC nobel prize. "? Which of the prizes shown in the link are SCIENTIFIC?

      About hispanics in US, do you realize that they usually face a worse fate than blacks, because, for a start, most of them started as ILLEGAL citizens?

      Are you aware that there are statistically confirmed, more weathy blacks than hispanics weathy people? yet how come no black has nearby that level of success regarding science (being awarded a Nobel prize or a Fields medal)?

      Same in classical music (the most complex music by far), are you aware that  even indigenous people, living in the wild for ages,
      were capable of composing music like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sez0z4RTP1U (look for bolivian baroque in amazon, for more), take also Jaime Laredo also as another example unmatched by black people in classical music.

      With millions far more wealthy than the family of SCIENTIFIC nobel laureates like Alvarez, Molina, or maestro Laredo in classical music,
      or the indigenous people in south america during the jesuit missions. How come no black equivalents in such fields?

      Do you get my point now, with these examples and facts?

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        Jazz is far more complex than classical & it wasn't just mimicked like your Hispanic examples did with classical Blacks created this art form from scratch. As for Nobel prize winners we have 16 in 6 categories & we are working on that scientific one. As for why we don't have one yet I point to my previous comment alluding to the current & past several centuries of economic & educational discrimination.  Now how about you answer my question about the low average Hispanic iQ. Do you believe thats in your genes or is there someother dynamic?

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Jazz is "far more complex than classical"? You have to be very ignorant of music to make such claim.

          There are TONS of classically trained musicians who amuse jazz fans in concerts, despite they mainly play classical.

          Examples? you can check the german pianist Alexander schimpf as a small example, or violinists Joshua Bell, Roy Sonne.

          However, how often do you see jazz musicians being able to play top notch classical music with such level of proficiency?

          About hispanics low iq, as I told you, the low average (better than blacks, despite living in worse conditions than blacks, as they are illegals for a start) doesn't avoid hispanics winning  SCIENTIFIC nobel prizes, or being found within top notch mathematicians.

          For instance, the mayans had math and/or astronomy MORE ADVANCED THAN THE EUROPEANS OF THEIR TIME (same amazing stuff found with some amazonic tribes less known than mayans), while the black NEVER were able to show that level in math. Jaime Escalante showed the path to raise up for illegal latins, when trained, they beat up whites in national scores. Too bad he got expelled because he was a problem for unions.

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            You offer up your opinion as if its fact. The fact is when ever the question is asked "what is the most complex form of music" Jazz is always mentioned as 1st or 2nd. The fact Jazx was created by African Americans points to our innate genius. What form of music has your people created from scratch.  All latin music has African roots. Also the struggles of being a foriegner pales to that of systemic racism.  Africans live in a world where even a person from a group with a mean IQ of 88 seeks to belittle our acomplishments. A system that teaches IQ is an inherent biological factor to explain away the results foul cards it has intentionally dealt to a people. A racist system that teaches this hierarchy is biological & has brain washed other victims of its inequality into agreeing they are inherently less intelligent than Whites by comforting them with the false hood they are inherently smarter than Blacks. This is foolishness.

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              Alexander Schimpf, Josh Bell or other classical musicians capable of play jazz at world-class level are not opinions, they are facts.

              You still fail to show me pure jazz musicians who can play world-class level of proficiency the most complex classical music, and play it in the cathedrals of classical music.

              I showed you examples, you fail to show me your example.

              The other part is a very long technical discussion, who could be far bigger than the article, here, and would demand you to be a conservatoire graduate to  understand it. But you can understand the players comparison in a more easy way.

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                Just for shits and giggles though
                Keith Jarrett, Benny Goodman, Dave Brubeck, Chick Corea, Joachim Kuhn, Ron Carter, Richie Beirach, Eddie Daniels, Bud Shank, Wynton Marsalis (who won Grammy's in classical and Jazz in the same year),Branford Marsalis -i'll stop hear but it clear you have avery limited knowledge of music history or you would not have made the rediculous assumption jazz artist have never played classical nor have played it well. Also the fcat is Jazz was an art form created by Afro- Americans. Hispanics have created no original form of music as Latin music has stromg African roots & even so only Jazz is compared to classical in its complexity. You are argueing Hispanics  can play a European form of music  better than  Africans can play a highly complex form of music they have created from scratch. This is false. The fact you were unaware of the myriad of Jazz musicians who have played classical well enough to sell millions of records and win Grammies for both in the same year leads me to assume the “very big long technical discussion” you allude to would be full of the same holes and lacking the same depth of knowledge you’ve just displayed –poorly played Javier…poorly played

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  Marsalis, Beirach or Kuhn and most of the ones who jazz players who can play classical  were CLASICALLY TRAINED, even since childhood.

                  If they are clasically trained musicians who switch to jazz, of course they will still be able to play classical, when it was their primary training, ins't it?

                  That's why I talked about PURE CLASSICAL MUSICIANS, ones with only jazz training, whithout being clasically trained, being able to play classical, like what you see when clasical musicians can grab jazz and play it beautifully.

                  BTW, the only case I remember of a musician with zero clasical training being able to play classical (and jazz also) was PACO DE LUCIA, and he was a flamenco guitarist and composer, not a jazz musician.

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Forgot another example CHESS.

          Brainy ethnic groups like whites or jews shine at Chess, yet hispanics had one world champion, Jose Raul Capablanca.

          Today, there are top notch (above 2600 elo) hispanic Chess players like Julio Granda, Lenier Dominguez, Lazaro Bruzon, Fernando Peralta, Rafael Leitao, etc. While on the black side, the black gold standard is Maurice Ashley, elo 2446 (a VERY long way from the 2600 elite).

          Isn't this another clear example of what I'm talking about?

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            All of the chess gm's youve quoted are from Europe or Latin American countries with very good chess programs. Maurice Ashley is from Jamaica one of the worlds poorest countries who never had a gm play there until Maurice Ashley did. You continually point to examples of people who come from superior enviroments.

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        en.m.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_composers_of_African_descent here is a list of Black classical music composers.
        again the 100 meter example is moot. We are talking about cognitive ability. This envolves consciousness. Its not just mere muscle. Once consciousness is entered into the equation you just cant measure it like a bicep.
        As far as illegal immigrants facing a worst fate im sorry this is a fallacy. Immigrants still have their lanquage & culture.  Both are powerful psychological support systems. The fallacy in this whole IQ argument is that no psychological data is taken in when IQ is clearly an aspect of mental function.  Numbers & data are easier to work with than psycho analytics but you simply cannot attribute numbers to an aspect of the mind. To do so will always be simply guess work

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        1st Id like to correct the categories 3 out of 6 were won by African Americans ir Black Africans & Sir William Arthur Lewis won the nobel prize for Economic Sciences ie: SCIENCE. We can talk physics & chemestry in the near future if you like but  I also dont see the point of admitting there are more Black Millionares than Hispanics millionares. I mean one need be intelligent to aquire a fortune. As for IQ & real intelligence Two of the highest IQ processors work in bars for a living [other peoples bars]

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          They also call psychology a science, but we are talking about REAL SCIENCE, the one who require EXTREMELY HIGH ABSTRACTION CAPABILITY that goes beyond the league of average humans.

          And again, I'm not talking about IQ, but about SCIENTIFIC NOBEL LAUREATES or winners of FIELDS MEDAL.

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            This part of the problem
            People are trying to quantify something that is an aspect of the mind ie: mental capabilities with out using the science that is a study of the mind ie: psychology

            People are trying to use so called hard sciences(this is what you probably were trying to say when you said “real” science) such as biology and statistics to quantify an aspect of mental function.
            This is idiotic.
            This is like trying to guess the speed of light by using the science of geology. Using the wrong discipline will never result in a right answer. All genetics and stats can do is tell you the results in this matter not the causation. We are looking for the causation. No scientific study has been able to point to any gene that correlates with lower IQ that also distributed amongst one racial groups as opposed to another For example: the gene that produces an enzyme called deiodonase-2 is not more prevalent in Blacks, Latinos or other low scoring groups.  
            Again this is NOT a matter of physical prowess. It’s a matter of MENTAL capability.  
            In my opinion in the matter of IQ scores If your not using any data from psycho-social studies your not looking for the real answer. By just using data from so called hard science the researchers are just looking for information that justifies the answer they want

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              What part of "I'm not talking about IQ, but about SCIENTIFIC NOBEL LAUREATES or winners of FIELDS MEDAL."  do you still fail to understand?

              What about Physics or Chemistry Nobel laureates? About Fields medal laufreates?

              How can 'environment' be the only excuse, when you can find laureates from very poor backgrounds and that suffered harsh conditions or even persecutions?

              Of the MILLIONS of middle-class or wealthy black kids in past decades, failed to produce ONE scientific Nobel laureate or Fields medalist, and you still say environment is the only possible cause?

              And you never answered, why would nature have to be 'fair'?

              If nature is unfair (predators kill other animals, naturally gifted athletes that can become superstars with proper training, people more handsome than others from birth), why would top-notch mental abstraction capability would be the exception? whern will you explain it?

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                I never said nature should be fair. In fact the fact Africa has two of the biggest deserts in the world, no domestic crops or animals native to its habitat & probably the harshest living conditions in the world & Eurasia & the Middle East are where domestic crops & animals are native to, fertile river areas along with the best climatic zones to live in is an unfair aspect of nature
                Again im stating your arguments using natural atheletic prowess to state mental prowess is inherited & displayed in the same manner is incorrect. No one is saying genes play no part in academic achievement or that environment is the sole factor
                What I am saying their is no genetic component that causes Blacks or minorities such as Hispanics to score lower on IQ test
                what I am saying is that the extreme racist oppressive environment is the primary reason for Black under achievement & this negative environment is far more extreme & damaging than you realize or admit. Blacks have been barred from participating in education from the lowest to the highest levels. Hispanics especially non Mexicans have been far more accepted by White society than Blacks ever have. When Sidney Potier played in a movie where he dated a White woman it was banned in the Southern US but Ricky Ricardo a Hispanic immigrants was & starred as the husband of Lucille Ball on nnational tv for years. Blacks would lie & say they were Latin to get jobs in the 1960's & prior. This is the depth of the discrimination Blacks have & still suffer. Below is a link describing some of the issues Black scientist & mathematicians have suffered.

                www.pbs.org/.../barriers-black-scientists.html

                http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/madgreatest.html

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  And I never denied environment play its part, but you can't deny the genetic role in EVERYTHING regarding human characteristics.

                  There have been millions and millions of kids from wealthy familes, yet such mass fail to produce ONE single scientific Nobel laureate or ONE field medalist or ONE chess prodigy in the 2600 area. How come you would still insist to blame only the enviroenment when you find cases like the ones I mentioned before, some of them coming from rural villages and living in extreme poverty in childhood?
                  Again, explain this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Cori

    • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

      Why my latest comments were removed?
      FWIW, the list of Nobel laureates you present just confirm my point, check your own list, can you confirm the absence of SCIENTIFIC nobel laureates?

      Besides, is it false what I told of my 100 meter competition example?

      Please ANSWER DIRECTLY and don't remove my posts.

      • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

        I can understand whites & Asians being cocky about the IQ numbers seemingly to point to some inherent superior intelligence but why is a Hispanic with a mean IQ of 88 trying to look down on Black IQ scores individually even if your an outlier im personaly more intelligent than you so why try to go there? Please dont ignore or dance around the question.  Also why would I erase your responses & how could I? I dont control this website.  Not to sharp are we Javier?

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          I gave you examples of Hispanics winning top notch scientific prizes (even in science olympiads), or the mayans or ancient tribes in south america showing advanced scientific understanding. Black have never shown such level in science, despite having a lot of rich black people worlwide.

          While at the same time, they are unbeatable in 100 meter running, showing the exact opposite scenario (other races, inclusing hispanics, being unable to compete at top level with blacks).

        • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

          Another thing I forgot, are you aware that, apart from being illegals, many of the kids taking IQ tests doesn't have english as their native language?

          Despite having high IQ in my childhood, I remember having wrong answers just because I didn't understand the questions. How impossible is that a similar thing happens to illegal citizens who are just having their first grasps at english language? Blacks doesn't have such 2 powerful barriers, yet they score lower in average.

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            Until you can understand the
            Psychological advantages of having a fully functional culture and the disadvantages of institutional racism you will never arrive at a true answer in this matter. Also you still haven’t answered my question

            Is the low average IQ amongst Hispanics a result of genetics? Are your people doomed by the very laws of nature to have these low IQ’s.
            Why are you avoiding this question?
            Its simply do you believe this to be so or not?

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              The Exalante project at Garfield showed that with proper oportunities, hispanics could shine. And Scientific Nobel laureates also showed that.

              Blacks don't have the same example on their side. They don't have an Escalante making black students beat whites in advanced math, and they have ZERO scientific nobel laureates.

              They also don't have the mayans equivalent (mayans had more advanced math than the europeans of their time, same with some less known people in south america, the Moxos region).

              • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

                I wrote this response before but it never appeared but I will write it again. Egypt, Nubia Axum & Kush in east Africa were some of the 1st & most complex civilizations on the planet. Egyptians built step pyramids like the Mayans then advanced to smooth sided pyramids which are far more difficult to build. Nubia excelled in Pyramid building as well all this long before the Mayans were thought of. In west Africa Timbuktu was a center for high learning & famous for this even in Europe. You have little to no knowledge of accurate Black or African history so you cant say what examples Blacks have of an "excelante" what I do no is African immigrants have the highest % of degress of any ethnic group. & this is a thread about innate IQ ability. You cant avoid my question by simply stating your only talking about Nobel Laureates. The very fact you allude to this indicates IQ is at the heart of your statement & you are indicating that Blacks inherently stupider than Hispanics & truthfully im mentally sparing with you with the proverbial hand tied behind my back. You are unable or unwilling to grip psycho social concepts & do not understand Black Africans are the original homo sapiens sapiens & humans haven't speciated to the point we would posses different mental potentials. All IQ scores fall along social enviromental lines. It just happens due to racism & other economic disparities IQ corresponds to race & economic status. Whites seeking to justify their position look to identify some natural genetic origin for this disparity that falls along racial lines. This type of gene distribution does not exist. Were there are genes that correlate with lower IQ these genes are not found in higher %'s amongst Blacks, Hispanics or other low IQ scoring groups. So in ending since you apparently believe Blacks are less intelligent than Hispanics due to genetics do you believe Hispanics are less intelligent than Whites due to genetics?  Simple question because the Nobel Laureates you harp on haven't effected your 88 mean IQ score & I have & can point to bbrilliant Black scientist who work for Nasa & other feilds of science who have done so inspite of the systemic racism that is far more extreme than youre European Spanish, South American nobel prize winners have ever suffered. Economic hardships do not equate to economic hardships plus systemic racism. Your very post is an example of the attitudes Blacks must face daily. Im argueing with I guy I know im obviously smarter than that thinks his people are inherently smarter than mine. This is ridiculous. People avoid studying data that didagrees with thier world view. If you truly seek answers to this IQ phenomenon I suggest you read "The new jim crow" & study about the psychological effects of racism on IQ just to try to get a more balanced view.....again simply answer my question & you need not hear from me again. I simply want to hear what you have to say on the matter

                • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

                  AGAIN What part of "I'm not talking about IQ, but about SCIENTIFIC NOBEL LAUREATES or winners of FIELDS MEDAL."  do you still fail to understand?

                  What about Physics or Chemistry Nobel laureates? About Fields medal laufreates?

                  How can 'environment' be the only excuse, when you can find laureates from very poor backgrounds and that suffered harsh conditions or even persecutions?

                  Of the MILLIONS of middle-class or wealthy black kids in past decades, failed to produce ONE scientific Nobel laureate or Fields medalist, and you still say environment is the only possible cause?

                  And you never answered, why would nature have to be 'fair'?

                  If nature is unfair (predators kill other animals, naturally gifted athletes that can become superstars with proper training, people more handsome than others from birth), why would top-notch mental abstraction capability would be the exception? whern will you explain it?

          • Hugh Cipher Hugh Cipher United States says:

            You realize Hispanics are given IQ test in "SPANISH" the 2nd language barrier does not exist here. It rarely exist in school scores (except English aptitude) because 2nd language Hispanic students are given test in their native tongue

            • Javier Perez Javier Perez Bolivia says:

              I explained this before, but didn't get posted.

              In my case, my test was taken in english, and the same in friend's cases some decades ago.

              And some trasnlated test we took back then had several mistakes that made the questions harder to comprehend (in some case worse that a current google translation).

              Even people could declare themselves english speakers, and they'd even use it in daily life, but there are some important nuances regarding a non-native language that people are not aware off, until they take the test.

              It's not the same at all to take a real native language test, native from the start, not translated, and also, not the same if you take it in english when you use on daily basis, but it's not your native language.

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